Hydraulic oil for models - what's in it?

[Espeefan]

I'm kind of curious if anyone knows what exactly Liembach or Wedico's hydraulic oil is made of? Or what it consists of. I thought I read that Wedico's oil is actually water soluble. The reason I ask is because I am wondering if there is a readily available, or more commonly available equivalent oil that will preform the same and have the same properties.

[Lil Giants]

I recall somebody saying that they had Leimbach's oil tested and it's properties were similar to 10W hydraulic oil.

I have since started using Esso Hydraul 50 (equivilant to 10W) with no troubles. 4L jug is about 10bucks from my local petrolium dealer.

[pugs]

I would have to think that any normal hydraulic oil should work fine. Here on the farm we mainly use Conoco Powertran fluid. Find a bulk oil dealer near you and you should be able to buy it by the qt or gal or whatever size jug you bring in, at least thats how our local farm oil supply store works, others require you to buy a pail.

[Espeefan]

Jeff and Joe, thanks for the info. I'm going to do a little more digging. I've been searching the net for some miniature hydraulic pumps and I found a company that claims to custom design pumps for any type of fluid. Their normally stocked pumps are designed for pumping fuel, so I was thinking if I knew what kind of oil I needed to pump, I could ask them what they'd suggest for the job. These pumps are small enough to fit inside the fuel tank of my Wedico, which was my plan from the start. That way I can have a wet kit on my truck for running a dump trailer or something else.

[ihbuilder]

some one on the late GT had it tested through cat, and turns out to be the same as cat 10w hydro oil . Since I had some on hand after I went through the oil that came with my wedico cylinder kit , I've been using it with no problems . Looks nearly Identical .

IHSteve

[Lil Giants]

I think I know what company you're talking about Nathan, but I don't have it bookmarked. They're out of California?

[JAMMER]

I believe that company is Flight Works Inc. I called them and they were just developing one and I think it was made of gold or platinum or something like that for the price they wanted. Ed

[Espeefan]

Yes, Joe and Ed. Flight Works out of Cali is the place. I had considered judt buying one of their fuel pumps and trying it, but for the money, I'd hate find out it doesn't work. They do have impressive figures for their size. The bigger pump does a liter per min! That's insane flow. These pumps are designed for kerosene. Jet turbine RC aircraft. The only other pump I've seen that comes close is the UMC pump from India. For hydraulic scale reteacts. Also aircraft applications. Brain in PA has one. Its 800 mL of flow per min. So there are options out there. UMC pumps are 33 Euro I think. The Flight Works push 149 US.

[JAMMER]

I first found those pumps and had a pressure gauge on one with ATF and it put out over 165 bl. I also ran some hydraulic oil I got from Harbor Freight and it slowed it down but it says in the paper work not to run them for long periods. They will fit in a fuel tank that were Brian has his. To tell you the truth I am not to impressed with it needs light oil and it all depends on how much you want to lift with it. Ed

[15-operator]

HI NATHAN
I HAVE THE UMC PUMP IN MY WEDICO DUMP I RUN 10W HYDROLIC FLUID
I HAVENT HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT. IM THE 1 WHO HAD CATERPILLAR
TEST THE LIEMBACH OIL AND THE 10W IS JUST A LITTLE HEAVIER. AND THE PUMP FITS INTO THE SMALLER WEDICO TANK I BELIEVE ITS 85MM LONG.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP97nmfQ2_I

[fhhhstix]

I work for a CAT dealer and we have a rental store as well and if I had to guess 90% of the equipment we have CAT included uses 10WT hyd oil thicker oils will make hyd systems sluggish and build up excessive heat thinner less dense oil will dissipate heat quicker.

[Lil Giants]

Originally Posted by fhhhstix

thicker oils will make hyd systems sluggish and build up excessive heat thinner less dense oil will dissipate heat quicker.

No, that's not entirely correct. Heavier hydra oils are sluggish when cold, but once at operating temperature, they're fine. The heavier hydra oil purpose over thinner oils is for continuous duty in warmer climates, as thinner hydra oils will heat up too quickly, break down much sooner and loose their lubricity at higher temperatures which will lead to equipment failure. Lighter oils will also foam & become "spongy" if they get too hot!

My summertime tractors use Hydraul 56. With the Panther, as an example, the small hydraulic orbit motor that powers the fan on the airdrill @3000rpm will run for 3 to 4 hr intervals. Then another orbit motor to refill seed/fert tanks. Then seeding again for another stretch. The hydra oil never has a chance to cool much in a 14hr day, especially at 25° or more climate. A combo of steel piping, oil cooler ahead of engine rad and large oil reservior helps to keep temps within perameters. A lighter oil would cause the small orbit motors to run erractic and would likely trip an alarm during the heat of the day.

Some guys in our hobby, like rc guy Scott have used 30W engine oil in their model hyds while running outside during the summer heat greater than 25° b/c the 10W becomes like water & spins around the gears & does virtually nothing.

[Espeefan]

Originally Posted by 15-operator

HI NATHAN
I HAVE THE UMC PUMP IN MY WEDICO DUMP I RUN 10W HYDROLIC FLUID
I HAVENT HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT. IM THE 1 WHO HAD CATERPILLAR
TEST THE LIEMBACH OIL AND THE 10W IS JUST A LITTLE HEAVIER. AND THE PUMP FITS INTO THE SMALLER WEDICO TANK I BELIEVE ITS 85MM LONG.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP97nmfQ2_I

Hi Vinny. Thanks for the information. That's really interesting about the oil. Always cool to hear research like this first hand. Glad you did the leg work with analyzing the oil.

Originally Posted by JAMMER

I first found those pumps and had a pressure gauge on one with ATF and it put out over 165 bl. I also ran some hydraulic oil I got from Harbor Freight and it slowed it down but it says in the paper work not to run them for long periods. They will fit in a fuel tank that were Brian has his. To tell you the truth I am not to impressed with it needs light oil and it all depends on how much you want to lift with it. Ed

Ed, that's good information also. Did you manage to do any lifting capacity tests? I wonder if ATF would work okay in the system. I don't see why not. Funny thing about running a pump long term. In an RC jet, they have to run for a while. As long as the turbine is running anyhow. We'd not need to run them long for dumping a load.

[pugs]

Just be careful with ATF fluid, it can and will ruin seals and ruber lines if they are not compatible. ATF causes rubber to swell up, which is why some guys will put a bit of atf in their engine oil or hyd system as a quick fix for a slow leak, but over time it will cause the leak to get much worse.

IF the hyd system components are all rated for ATF then yes by all means it will work just fine.

[Espeefan]

Interesting Jeff. Didn't know that. Maybe I should look at the aircraft hydraulic oil. It's pretty thin stuff. Looks, smells, and feels like ATF, but it's not. We use some of that at work in self contained hydraulic units, which run the dock locks for the ICC trailer bars.

[JAMMER]

Nathan no I did not try any lift test just pressure. There is another good place for ATF and that is put some in the fuel the detergent in it helps to keep the injectors clean. Ed

[Lil Giants]

Yep, I use ATF as a cheap fuel lubricant in my pre 2000 diesel engines... the electric fuel shut off in the injection pump was sticking closed in my '95 CH 427hp, couldn't get it to start without tapping the back of pump with something metal. Dealership said to use ATF & I was adding 2L every 450L fill, by the third fill it cured the problem. The manual fuel shut off in my '83 350 Cat in the Panther almost seized up a couple yrs ago. The sulphur content is almost non exsistent in today's diesel fuel - emissions, fuel is really dry!

[JAMMER]

Joe here is another little bit of info if you have water problems in the winter put some alcohol in the fuel and it will take care of the problem all except for the Mack they use to have a little scraper filter and that is were the alcohol would stay and it would not burn it I use to use the alcohol if I started to freeze up and then at night empty the file. A Cummins and a cat love alcohol. Dry gas works but alcohol works better Ed

[fhhhstix]

You are correct Joe heavier wt oils are meant to be used in warmer climates and I do understand how oils work the wt used is based off the temperature range and once a heavier oil heats up it does become thinner and most oils have anti foaming agents in them and for most of the U.S. 10wt is fine for the majority of the equipment. Yes lighter oils heat up faster but they also cool off quicker if I am wrong explain to me how denser materials cool faster than less dense materials.

The models guys are building don't have proper cooling for the systems Freddy added a cooling fan and heat sink to his equipment. If you have proper cooling alowing you to run lighter oil your system will have less stress and last a lot longer and your battery life will be extended as well.

Here is a CAT fluid recommendation chart.


Travis

[Lil Giants]

Originally Posted by fhhhstix

I work for a CAT dealer and we have a rental store as well and if I had to guess 90% of the equipment we have CAT included uses 10WT hyd oil thicker oils will make hyd systems sluggish and build up excessive heat thinner less dense oil will dissipate heat quicker.

Heavier hydraulic oils don't build up excessive heat, they absorb heat, which why they're better to use in warmer climate than lighter hydraulic oil.

Lighter oil heats up quickly and if it gets too hot, the oil will scorch itself & the components it propelling... that's if the cooling system is pushed beyond it's capabilities.

I just caught up with the retired gent that used to own/operate the locate Esso depot, he knows his petrolium products... hydraul 50 is 10W and hydraul 56 is 30W.

I spoke to a few other ppl at Case/New Holland as to why heavier oils are better and their response was vague, they pretty much use what the manufacture warranties...

I knew the hydrostat in my 9060 combine uses 10w hyd oil and I was shocked to find out that the bypass psi for the system is set at 6100psi! ... so much for my original thought that light oil was better suited to low pressure/high flow.

As far as these minature hydraulic systems are concerned, what weight oil a modeller would use depends on the climate and cooling system implemented within the model.

Freddy's heat sink & fan within his excav model helped immensely to control the temperature of oil, as well as it's viscosity from getting to thin while he was running his model in 90° sunshine.

I myself don't need a cooling system of any kind b/c I'm in 65° shade.

It was your comment Travis that "heavier oils build up heat" that sparked my attention and question the accuracy of that statement... I learned some other interesting things about oils & equipment along the way too.