Axle suggestions?
 

I'm looking for some possible axle suggestions to power an old steel earth moving toy, that i will be able to reconfigure for either Dump or Scrape operation. This is a Power Unit of something 2 axle and articulated. Basically it's an offroad tractor with permanent hitched attachment and no front axle.

The bigger setup 'just as a toy' empty weighs in around 11 lb 6 oz (11.5 Pounds). It's also going to need to be able to drag around a 'pretty good chunk of dirt'. One config has a tapered hopper 6x11.5x5", the other i'm not sure how to actually measure bowl struck or heaped capacity, so let's say 7x6x4" and self loading. Moving some yardage.

I'm thinking it's probably going to need some type of Crawler axle or Gearmotors?

Tires are 4-3/16" tall. 1-1/2" wide
Width between frame rails 2-7/8"
Frame rails 1" tall,
Fenders come out to 5-1/2" wide

I could probably either run each wheel tank-style, or come up with a way to steer off the trailer gooseneck.
If a crawler axle is the best way, a locking-diff would probably help to be able to swing around and still dig in?

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I think the space between your frame rails might dictate what you use...
The heavy duty planetary gear motors are over 100mm long but they have the torque your going to need. The 90 degree worm drive motors might work. Or you might have to machine or somehow build a gear box.
if you have room you could look at 550 80 turn motors and a 3 or 4 to 1 gear reduction feeding a crawler axle but I'm thinking some type of direct drive to the wheels would work out best....
I'm looking at some of the same limitations for my Tournarocker and tournadozer

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Yeah, I'm just hoping there might be a kinda easy solution.

https://imgur.com/4LK5AxFh.jpg

Since you mentioned some of the LeTournau designs, I remembered seeing this Tournarocker build, but that type of gearbox housing machining is probably beyond my skill with the current tooling

https://rctruckandconstruction.com/s...t=Tournarocker

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Yeah I have that one bookmarked to refer back to....but yeah I have noway of building that type of gearbox.
I've thought of using a couple of these to make a pair of gearboxes
https://www.servocity.com/1-50-aluminum-channel/
Those toys are going to take some work they are pretty rough...

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I'll probably need to set up the bruder medical clinic playset to make sure all the action figures have current tetanus shots before we try to drag these out of their grave.

But really they're pressed steel toys, so it just needs a little bit of Sandblaster love and some Paint. I'm not fighting with the 'Serious Collectors' over good toys to 'Ruin'. Most of mine took some vicegrip or hammer & dolly work to put into service. If it doesn't work it's just a test mule, if it does i can do a good one and try some push-pull loading

I'd wondered about those 90 deg. Wormgear boxes, but hadn't messed with any yet to know about durability and driving characteristics. I know worms give great dragbrake, but you've got to be smooth on power, and they tend to wear a little quick

I didn't know if any of the small RockCrawlers could be made strong enough for the forces.
Some 1/10 parts should hold, but it would take some shoehorn work.

I wasn't sure if any of the rc Tanks might have some suitable transmissions.

These real machines were single engine with like 130 hp, top speed of 30 mph. So i'm not wanting to ask for WAY TOO MUCH, but it's still asking for a Lot.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

RC tank setups I think would work but you only have about an inch from the axle to the bottom of the frame...
I have some 90 degree motors coming for another project but I want to see if they will at least fit under the tournadozer...if they do they should fit yours too.
By the way... your Nylint crane with the duals on the rear is one of the earlier ones and kind of rare, most only have a single wheel on each axle

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

The Heiliner axle hole is a bit below the frame, and i think it could get away with 'some' additional lift, if axle shifts aft so the fender gap is maintained.

Atleast the Heiliner power unit gives some room under the hood for stashing some components, not sure if the Wooldridge would give more

Yeah, good catch! Both of my Nylint Michigan Cranes are the first version with Dually rear, Knuckle steering, and chrome hole-plugs for headlights. Though i still I have no idea where the boom extension on the 'Truckmaker' one came from.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Frizzen:

If you've got a 3D printer you could probably print that gearbox. Properly designed 3D printed parts will stand up to a LOT of abuse, they just need plenty of wall thickness and plenty of infill. Especially if you've got a nice steel plate that you can bolt them to, like you do. I've printed a lot of the parts for a CNC router that I'm building, and I've got NO concerns about any of them being too flexible.

Don

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Glad to here you say that ddmckee...I've been wondering if I could print something that would stand up to the torque needed to run these.
That would really solve a lot of problems, I've been using 3d printed parts in different places to see how much they would stand.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

That's a really interesting idea ddmckee!
I wouldn't have thought of it since most of the 3D printed stuff i've messed with so far was either done with less stable plastics or at lower % infills.

Bolting a plastic gearbox to the chassis plate with a sandwich-plate doubler below would be a really simple way to keep it stable, and keep the gears sealed up.

Which types of plastics are you having good luck with for the CNC project?

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

As of right now i'm thinking i'll be trying some of these asian 12v 90 degree worm gearboxes
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08M6731...t_details&th=1

Shaft drive coupler to bolt flange adapter things should let me get wheels mounted.

With the 4" tires these run = 1 foot per revolution, 12v motor at 7.6v, i thought 90 rpm seemed like a good starting point? I may want to drop lower speed once i see how it looks and start load testing

I got one and my BIG concern with Wormgears doesn't look like it'll be an issue. This motor does have a short coast-down to stop before it locks the output, so hopefully i won't be blowing the teeth off the worms. Since it can slow gradually to reduce stress on gears and locks when stopped, I definately do NOT want to use an esc with brake.

My other concern is that this still doesn't look like a lot of motor to drag around a bunch of steel & dirt.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I know both those toys are HEAVY... especially the scraper and with a full load of dirt?!?!?
Even with two motors I'm not sure they will have the grunt for the scraper.... The belly dump maybe since it just has to haul the weight around not dig in....
I guess the only way to find out is try it...and have a plan "B"
Just seems every build I've read about over the last couple years the builders say these motors don't hold up...IDK why....
I saw a guy do a Tonka scraper last fall but it was on FB so good luck finding it now...
FOUND IT...Finally....I hate looking for stuff on FB....Anyway... here is the scraper Rex Bryson built it.... not sure if he will share any information but...
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...45960662390545

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Ok, good to know. I hadn't really managed to find any builds using them, so i guess that's why...

After having one of those motors in hand, it had looked like the Heiliner might be able to become a 'tandem engine' scraper (drive to all 4 wheels). But if it's not found to be a durable motor setup, it's probably not going to be worth trying.

I can't open the FB link, so here's a guy driving many different Tonkas
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/non-c...onversion.html

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I've look at those....he does the Mighty Tonka's I think they are close to 1/10 so he has a pretty wide variety of big motors and axles to chose from

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I agree with jerry56, even though these toys may be heavy, I don't think they'll have enough traction to be able to dig a load of dirt in the scraper. The belly dump should be doable though.

Don

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Frizzen:

I haven't been able to check on this thread for a while, and I didn't see that a couple of months ago you'd asked me a question - until today.

All my printing to this point has been PLA. That includes the cooling fan duct on my D6 printer, and it is only about 10-15mm away from the hot block of the extruder in one spot. I don't leave my parts exposed to a heat source. I did make some motor mounts for the stepper motors on me CNC router. It's still a work in progress so I can't say if they'll hold up or not, but that's what the MPCNC uses so I think it'll be fine?

Don

If I'm concerned about part strength I'll increase the number of perimeter walls and the infill percentage. I usually shoot for about 1-2mm separation between the infill grid-lines if I'm worried about the strength of the part.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

That's when you need a big Cat to push

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

i haven't been able to find much info even on the big machines about how much weight and power it takes for blade widths, cutting depth, speeds for various soil conditions. Realistically i'd be happy enough if it plays in crumb rubber or loose dirt. Still be fun even if i have to ''hire'' somebody with a "Big ol' Dozer" to help play for doing more than skim cutting.

So, um, if a guy were thinking about stupid ways some old junk might get a repaint... I know that Kodachrome was available to the public post-WorldWar2, but how are you feeling about Black&White photography?

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

What about flat OD green.....then brush away some of the paint to expose the rust.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I just saw this... just to throw another option at you. Not sure what size this is cause they made a couple different sizes.... but...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35402324102...kAAOSwSJJiYuQu

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

That's really cool, i don't remember ever seeing a Structo Dozer with a Bellydump! A dozer would probably be easier to work with than upfitting a wheeled tractor power unit.

Hmm, a flat OD green with some black or white stencil could work for like an Army Corps Engineers or Navy Seabee vibe.

I was just kicking around Blast, prime, shoot in white, then keep mixing paint shades to try to do the entire thing in grayscale like a black&white picture. Maybe lettered up as an easter-egg for something obscure like "Shandor Mining Company" or "Kelland Mining Company"...
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Looks like in the time period these were made, the "Articulated Dump Truck" was just in infantcy, with Dump trailers hooked to the heavy, slow, torquey, and overbuilt power unit machines that were made to pull a Scraper.
So the Heil or Wooldridge power unit could apply to running both the Belly-dump or a Scraper, but not seeing many pics of a Heil with a belly-dump.

The official Wooldridge bottom-dump attachments i'm commonly seeing has a pretty cool ''box slides off trailer floor'' thing instead of bomb-bay doors of the model. They also had a tip up rear dump available.

Heil - Heiliner 2T55, 2T75
Wooldridge - TerraClipper, TerraCobra TC-Y scraper. CobraWagon, CobraHaul dump

Scraper training video
https://youtu.be/hld5ydgeWlU

Some Heiliner company info
https://contractormag.co.nz/classic-...l-earthmoving/
Doepke possibly inspired by the 2H700 / 2H800 models

Some Wooldridge company info
https://www.constructionequipmentgui...-history/16566

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I hadn't seen that combination before either....it would really help with the traction issue
Black and white...faded paint....letter it in a kind of 50s style.... lots of options if you go that route...

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Looks like the Wooldridge tractor is going to work easier than Heil tractor, fair amount more room inside. It should have room for the bigger black-can 12v 90 degree gearmotors.

I need to look into possible motor swaps for the Silver-can gearmotors i ordered to start with. If i can find some, nice 6v rock-crawler cans could probably turn 'meh' power into a beast
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Looks like the smaller silver-can "jsx-370 series" boxes are maybe 370 motors?

The larger black-can "jsx-31yz series"

---

Also I found another TournaPull build, starts with a Nylint Tourna-rocker then finding drawings for real one and 3D printing. Also has some narrow gearmotor info and motor swaps

https://www-modelltruck-net.translat...tr_pto=ajax,nv

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Nice find.... but he had problems finding motors small enough and strong enough to move the truck.... and his had more room then ours will.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I remembered the Redcat Everest-16 rock crawler that was a donor for my Structo Dump originally had a 280 / 370 motor. So ordered pair of Redcat 'RC370' 28026N motors.

https://imgur.com/996o5iMh.jpg

Redcat motors are a direct swap into those jsx-370 series gearboxes.
Screws were originally installed with very much red locktite, assume the need for heatgun or soldering iron to break hardware loose.
Brass worm gears are a press fit on rotors, but you can lever them off the original motors with Diagonal cutters.

Uh, gear ratio is probably WAY off. But i'm learning. Maybe?

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I use those redcat motors on my WPL motor/transfer case combos they work really well they add just enough speed....You can put a drop of solder on those press on gears to help hold them in place....

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Glad to hear you've had good luck with these motors.

Now that i know some 'high torque' RC motors do fit, i probably should go back through my first truck build to see if i kept any notes on gear ratios, final drives, gear inches. Ya know, boring stuff.
--
Luckily i didn't save any of that!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

Jungle website sells those 370 gearboxes in several flavors: 3, 6, 10, 18, 23, 30, 40, 66, 90,160, 210 RPM

Then there's a questionable review for those with chart they posted as stolen from ebay, claims gear ratios: 40, 65, 160, 200, 260, 340, 600,1000 (xx to 1)
Sketchy chart 90rpm = 65:1
Then i'm thinking something 200:1 (30), 260:1 (23), or 340:1 (18) sound much more likely numbers for dragging 10+ lbs of truck, some dirt, maybe another truck

So far all i do know for sure is that 90 rpm + Redcat motor = Too fast.
--
Got some 12v at 23 RPM (260:1) units on the way. Less than 1/3 speed of the first try, and the reduction ratio seems more like a crawler. Hopefully it can get a machine out of its own way in a realistic manner.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

A couple minutes with these new "23 rpm" / 260:1 boxes got the motors swapped. Wired straight to a 6 nimh stick pack seems like it should have the torque up closer to where i need it.

I'm sorta basing this off a Redcat Everest 1/16 rock crawler, because a shaft drive solid-axle donor for my Structo dumptruck seems just like a dual-motored belly dump Wiggle-wagon. Nope.
Looks like those used a rebadged Hobbywing esc, that are possibly programmable with a card. "25-Amp continious Brushed ESC"
so i shouldn't need to get too crazy with holding crazy power or features here.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Based on your findings I wonder if a 23 or 30 rpm 6v would work... I've started ordering more 6v motors.
12v running on 7.2v cuts speed and torque almost in half... but a 6v running 7.2 give you almost 20% more of both... and a 6v motor should easily handle 7.2v
I wana see how well these fit on your wooldridge bottom dump and see if they hold up cause if they work I want to use them on my tournarocker and tournadozer

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

These '23 rpm' boxes use the same case as the '90 rpm', differences are just internal, gear sizes & layout.

As it fits in tractor before i made new hitch, did involve notch & flatten part of frame C-channel to get 4 frame mount bolts per gearbox. Motor cans point forward.
https://imgur.com/qjU8G9eh.jpg

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I had looked at some of their 6v versions of them, and wasn't very impressed with the specs provided using their supplied Silver-can motors!
https://nfpshop.com/product/6v-12v-2...el-nfp-dwg-370

With their 6v 260:1 ratio box coming in at 17 rpm. Then pushing 4" tires at 1 foot per rpm, i can't really see being satisfied with this equipment moving at 18 feet per minute empty, downhill, with a tailwind. The rc hobby can build better motors than that.

4" diameter tire has 2" radius = 5.08cm. Gearbox spec sheet lists Max rated Torque at 25 kg-cm. So i think that's like 5.08kg at tire tread.

I started with this form-factor because it would fit in the narrower Heiliner tractor that i had first. The Wooldridge tractor can take bigger, but i'd like to get a useable setup for something before i start buying another size and completely forget what i'm learning about this.

Today i welded up a swivel-wobble thing for the test tractor, now I think i'm on the right path!!!

A Wooldridge with 2 of these "12volt / 23 rpm / (260:1)" that are motor swapped to the Redcat motors listed above that say "370" on label, parallel wired straight to a stick pack. Gets a decent slow walking speed that looks pretty scale for heavy equipment. Added 10 pounds of steel in the box, still pulls it like it's her job. Might be about time for a build thread.

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Looking at that link you posted the 6v and 12v motors have the same specs. Except the 6v motor pulls more current...
Plus like I said if you drive a 12v motor at 7.2v your 17rpm becomes about 10rpm and your torque drops almost in half. With a 6v motor 17 rpm becomes about what 18 or 19rpm and the torque comes up slightly also.
Either way I'm looking forward to seeing this build....

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

Yeah jerry, that's a big chunk of why i went to some RC hobby 6v motors as used in a rock crawler vs trying again with the 6v Industrial motors. Bearing, Windings, Brushes, Armatures, Magnets all aimed at making power, or just trying to squeeze more efficency and longevity into a gutless package.

Wow, i didn't know there were so many LeTournau toys that seem to use the same power-unit
http://www.tnttoytrucks.com/NYCONstruction.html
Should be fun to see what you'll come up with there

Travel speeds of similar vintage Euclids, bottom dumps start about middle of video.
https://youtu.be/YDfPw6DHTGw

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I was looking for something else, but thought this info about the Tournalrockers might help motivate your Nylint model C

https://contractormag.co.nz/classic-...tournarockers/

Re: Axle suggestions?
 

I had seen that before but lost track of it thanks... I book marked it this time